How Brand Photographers Build Trust Before Anyone Picks Up a Camera

Most founders spend a lot of time thinking about how to attract the right clients but very few spend time thinking about whether the right clients can actually find them. 

Nikki sits down with two brand photographers who have cracked that problem wide open, and what they know about making your personality visible, communicating before anxiety sets in, and designing an experience that filters for fit applies to every service business in this audience, camera or no camera.

What you'll hear in this episode:

• Why Vic's clients kept using the same word in their reviews that wasn't showing up anywhere in her brand, and what that gap was actually costing her
• The pre-shoot process Dana builds for every client and the reason it exists long before anyone picks up a camera
• Why communicating your policies, your timeline, and your process upfront isn't oversharing; it's the most efficient client filter you have
• The thing both Dana and Vic agree is the most important decision a founder makes before a shoot, and why it has nothing to do with outfits

If your best clients found you because they felt like you got them before they ever got on a call, this episode is going to show you exactly how to engineer that.

About My Guests

Dana Castro

Dana Castro is a brand photographer who helps entrepreneurs polish their online presence through strategic visual storytelling. She blends her background as a marketing director, her nerdy camera obsession and her passion for authentic human connection to create images that can convert and start conversations. Dana offers a collaborative, personalized approach serving clients across the Greater Toronto Area and beyond.

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/threecrownsbranding/ 

Website: https://www.threecrownsstudio.com/ 

Google My Business: https://share.google/mAIlVxzz33IsAt6zw

Victoria Mae Cassell

Victoria is a brand photographer, marketing strategist, and content creator based in Ontario, helping female founders stop being the best-kept secret in their industry. Through brand photography, UGC, and social strategy, she builds visibility that turns followers into clients and dream brands into actual partners. When she's not behind the camera, she's building her own platform as a female entrepreneur lifestyle creator and hosting the Post High Vibe Dinner, an intimate gathering for women who are done playing small.

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/victoriamaebrands/

Website: https://www.victoriamae.ca/ 

Google My Business: https://share.google/3wlGiZPhNfacKfuqw

Connect with Nikki on Instagram: instagram.com/iamnikkimck 

The Would Recommend Standard is a free guide to the five principles behind businesses people can't stop talking about. 

Grab it here: theopsshop.biz/wouldrecommend-standard 

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Book yours here: theopsshop.biz/sparksession 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

This is the one I was telling you about. It is the You will not believe this play so that I just found literally a link to literally everyone I know. Their biggest one telling everybody about this. Tell them my sentence is my favorite.

SPEAKER_02 0:15

This one is so good. Girl, 10 out of 10 would recommend. There is a specific kind of anxiety that lives in that space between booking a brand shoot and then actually walking into one. You've picked your outfits, and if it's me, it's likely something bright pink and sequined. You've made a Pinterest board. You've looked at someone else's Pinterest board and then decided yours was wrong, so you made another Pinterest board. You might be telling yourself that you don't photograph well, you just don't look good in photos, which is something almost every single person believes about themselves, which statistically means most of us are probably wrong about that. Welcome to Would Recommend. I'm Nikki McKnight, a customer experience and operations strategist and founder of the Ops Shop, and this is the show all about the businesses that customers can't stop talking about and what they actually did to earn it. Today I am sitting down with two photographers who have both spent years thinking about exactly what happens before, during, and after a shoot, and why the camera part is probably the least important part of the whole thing. First up, we have Dana Castro. She is the founder of Three Crown Studio based in Oakville, offering brand photography, commercial work, and web design to women-owned businesses across the GTA. And since 2018, she has been helping founders show up online in a way that actually reflects the business they've built and who they are. Up next, we've got Victoria Maycastle. She is a brand photographer, marketing strategist, and content creator based in Ontario, helping female founders stop being the best kept secret in their industry through brand photography, UGC, and social strategy. She's about turning visibility into followers, into clients. So here's the thing about both Dana and Vic: they work differently. Their processes are not the same. And what came out of the conversation we had, I think is something that applies well beyond photography. Because what these two women know about making people feel safe, communicating before problems happened, and designing a client experience that builds trust at every single stage. This is going to apply to every business in this audience, whether it involves a camera or not. Let's go. So I've done a few brand shoots. I've done one with Dana. I've done one with some other people. And when founders think I need to do a shoot, maybe it's because they're creating something new. Maybe it's a new website, maybe they want to refresh their social content, maybe they're doing a campaign for something like a book. But I feel like there can sometimes be a gap between what a client says they want and what they actually need the photos to do. So how early on in your process do you get into the where are these going to live? How are you going to use them conversation? And does their answer change how you shoot?

SPEAKER_00 3:05

For me, it starts in the discovery call. Um, and it everything that I do is built around the marketing piece. So photos are just my way of helping them be seen more. That's just my tool uh in the equation for them. But my main goal is actually their marketing and making sure it aligns. So that's for me, um, where it starts is right away. Absolutely changes everything from the location you're shooting to the types of props that you want to websites, like are such a different beast. If they do not tell me up front that the main goal is for websites, there's a solid chance that they're not gonna be happy with the gallery because websites, you need really wide shots that can go really nice and skinny for your banners. Yeah, all your hero image sections, all your hero images, right? So that's not gonna work if you're just doing um, you know, close-up headshots, close-ups, or even like some of the detail shots or even landscape shots, like you can still get some really beautiful landscape shots that will never work on a banner because or a hero image because it's just not shot for web. So that's definitely one that's like, if you don't let me know that this is gonna be a like you need stuff for your web banners, then you're gonna be really upset afterwards.

SPEAKER_02 4:26

Dana, how does that change for you when people say, I want to have a shoot because and this is how I'm gonna use it? How does that conversation change with with your customer base?

SPEAKER_01 4:36

Um, I work with a lot of service-based businesses. So again, the discovery call is really important because it's where are you gonna use them, but also what type of services do you provide? And then a lot of times then we're spitballing and we're getting creative about on that discovery call about what types of shots they need to show off their services. So if that's a physiotherapist, they need hands-on shots, they need shots of them treating someone, they need someone filling out paperwork in their waiting room, stuff like that. They tend to default to me to help them really like create those ideas. Mostly my clients are coming saying, like, I've come to you because you can help me with what I need. And then on the service space side, just making sure we get shots of them with clients. A lot of people just think, oh, well, I'll just do shots of me and do some headshots and have some lovely shots that look great. And I'm like, let's get you hands-on with with people trust me, you'll you'll be really happy that you have those.

SPEAKER_02 5:30

It makes sense because I think anything public-facing in terms of marketing that involves photography, part of the goal is to allow customers or potential customers to feel into the vibe, but also really understand what it is you do. And if it's just you, it's like, well, does anybody use you? How do we expand beyond this? In the episode I did with Lisa and Cheryl about their stationary brands. One of the things Cheryl pointed out, and Lisa mentioned this too, is I just need to have photos where hands that are not my hands are holding my products because they're like, we're both black women, is extremely obvious when it is us holding a journal or holding a pen. If we want to be able to show that other people are using these, these things are out live in the world. I had never thought about, yeah, as a service provider, do you have a face that is not yours? Like, in some ways, I think that can really speak to the legitimacy and experience of a brand, whether it's true or not, because I'm thinking about my website, I'm like, there's no other people on my website. And I'm one of those people, my website is out of date. I know, don't look at it. But it's just me. I don't have client photos on there. I don't have me in situ doing anything. And that really does make me wonder can the presence of other people or can the presence of certain types of shots speak to your legitimacy and experience just with images and not with your copy and like here's all the things I've done and here's my testimonials. I hadn't really thought of that before. If they're trying to create like what is it gonna be like to work with them, it's really nice to have those hands-on shots. The biggest mistake founders make before a brand shoot is blank, not hiring a photographer that matches their their style. Ooh, okay, tell me a little bit more about style, Dana. What does that mean?

SPEAKER_01 7:09

Whether it's a like style personality that matches with yours well or their editing style. Um that that's a big one because I think some people just just pick a name out of a hat, and it's really important to pick someone that that matches your vibe that you think I'm gonna have a good time with them. Well, I want to hang out with them.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

I think building on the style, I would also go with having a photographer or finding a photographer that actually understands the marketing strategy as well. So, yes, we want photos that match in style, but we also want photos that are going to match what our marketing efforts are coming up. And if you've got beautiful photos that don't give you the versatility in your marketing, you just wasted the investment.

SPEAKER_02 7:54

You've both mentioned that these conversations really start in that discovery phase. Maybe it's through an intake form, maybe it's for that first call to kind of say where what is the end use of this? And I really think as someone who has done branding shoots before, one of the biggest or maybe most important or impactful parts of this process is that pre-shoot experience. It's not the two, three, four, five hours you're in a studio or on location literally with a camera in your hand. So much of the work is outside of that. It's setting up, it's getting prepared, it's getting aligned to what you're doing. And then it's the editing gallery select phase. So walk me back to when you both realized pre-shoot and post-shoot have to be really solid because otherwise what we do in studio doesn't matter as much, or it's not as powerful as it could be.

SPEAKER_01 8:46

I think for me, it it happened when I worked with a couple of clients and I realized that we were just sucking up our time on set if we don't pre-plan it, especially when it comes to like wardrobe, things like that. If those things aren't selected and intentional beforehand, it just wastes your precious time in studio. And also it takes out all of those, like sort of, you know, when you're first meeting someone and you kind of are chatting and all that time. I usually tell clients like when we get there the day out, like we're gonna chat, we're gonna hang out, we're gonna have a good time, but like we have a job to do. So it really helps extract the most variety for me out of the session when we have that chat beforehand, and then everything's top of mind. And then I usually bring a shot list and a mood board with us so that if we have a moment where we get stuck, we can refer back to that. But that way, everything is just in my brain, and I can make sure that I bring that out.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

For me specifically, I do the pre-production questionnaire, so it's a pretty intensive brain questionnaire that I have my clients work through. I warn them ahead of time, it's about a 45-minute commitment. So you gotta spend some time because it's so important to not view your photographer just as a one-time relationship that they're coming in for four hours, they're gonna click a button, you're gonna have some great photos. That is not the goal, and that's not the role that we really play. I think what we need to do more as photographers and also for people looking for photographers, is find that person that's going to dive into your business, become part of your team for the time that they're working with you, get as much information as they can about where you are right now, where you're going, not just now, but like where are you going in five years? Because you never want to also have that client that they want to launch a journal brand in five years. And they've never talked about journaling until the day that they launched the journal brand, figuring out where you're going and let's start building that story from now so that that could be a part of the equation. And so it's it's not just about um, hey, here's the game plan for this shoot, but also, hey, here's the longevity of where we're going and how do we visually get people on board to believe that story when you arrive there?

SPEAKER_02 11:05

Something I've been I've been hearing a lot and seeing in my own work when I work with creative agencies is I feel like creative offers, a large part of managing the experience, the expectation, the behaviors of your clients is preparing them for what comes next. We're gonna do this and then we're gonna do this and then so that, etc. Especially when we talk about photography. There's a lot of folks who I don't like getting my photo taken. I'm so nervous. I'm I'm how am I gonna look? What is it gonna do? When people see this, what are they gonna think? I'm not an influencer, I don't look like Paige DeSorbo, even though I really wish I did. But it's part of like arming them beforehand with this is how this is going to work, this is what I'm going to ask of you, this is what I expect of you. And I think the biggest place that shows up for me in photography is when the gallery is delivered. Because people can like leave the shoot feeling like, oh, you know, I had such a great time on set. I liked my wardrobe, I think I looked cute that day. And then, like, that that time in between the shoot ending and the gallery delivery, I feel like there's nervousness, there's excitement, there's dread of what happens when I open my gallery and I look like shit, or they only send me five photos because they don't want to tell me that only five photos turned out. So when you start thinking about the process of them actually seeing the end result, because now, like that's the thing that's in their head is what they're paying for and what they're getting is that end result. How do you manage their emotional journey, their expectations going into kind of that post-shoot to gallery delivery time?

SPEAKER_01 12:45

I would say hopefully you don't have to if you've done your job drastically. Like hopefully you know that you're delivering them a story in their gallery. Like that's what I like to think of it as. Um hopefully they see that there's that story that we've been talking about in that discovery call till the end point. Um, but yeah, it's nerve-wracking. I don't, and I tell clients all the time, I don't love every photo of myself that gets delivered for me. And so that's why I love a proof gallery because then they can pick the ones they love of themselves. Because I might think this shot looks great and you might feel not so great about it. So hopefully that gives them some flexibility when they do see their gallery that um they need to pick the ones they love of themselves.

SPEAKER_02 13:35

Do you give them any guidance, Dana, on like how to actually pick the quote unquote good shots? My friend Jen just had a shoot with Dana like a week or two ago and got her gallery. And I always think when you open that gallery and you see the list, you get really excited, but it'd also be a little bit overwhelming. So do you guide folks at all on like, okay, when you get your gallery, I just want you to look at it. Don't make any choices. Or this is how you should pick the favorites or your top 30, top 50, however many photos your shoot kind of comes with. How do you guide them through that part of receiving the gallery so that they don't just spontaneously go, I love all of it, which is probably not very helpful, or I hate every single thing I'm seeing.

SPEAKER_01 14:12

They usually tell them to take their time. So I usually am like no rush because people have stuff going on in their lives. They might have a busy week. I don't want them to feel like they have to rush their selection. So I'm like, take your time, like let yourself sit with it. But also because people are using, they might be working with a social media person or a web designer. Often they might also have a subsequent meeting with that person where they sort of need their two cents on what's gonna look best on their their feed and their site. I would rather them sit down with like a coffee when they're having a good, feeling day about themselves and pick their photos rather than feel like they've gotta like get me a certain number by a certain time.

SPEAKER_00 14:50

I love Dana sharing her process because mine is totally different. But one thing that I was picking up on there that I really love, and I just wanted to highlight was I think it's so cool that people can have such different processes, but still serve people so well in the process, as long as they're communicating what that process is and doing it from that heart of service. So I just like wanted to be like, even though we're so different, that's why I do these duo episodes.

SPEAKER_02 15:21

Could it be that that is why?

SPEAKER_00 15:23

I love that you picked up on that. Fantastic tell us your. I was like, no, my process is so different, but I loved hearing your heart behind why you do the what you do, because it really does showcase that there's no fully right or wrong way as long as you are serving people well. So um that yeah. So what I do, um, totally different from Dana. I actually realized that for me personally, if I was my client, what would I want? Kind of thing. One, I'd want all of the photos, like I don't want to choose. Decision fatigue is already a thing for me. And so I I give them the full gallery. I don't pick and choose, and my galleries are pretty beefy. I was editing the whole gallery anyways when I was letting them pick. So there was no like, yeah. So I was like editing like a lot of weird photos and then letting them pick there, yeah. No, and I was like, this is so silly. If I'm editing them anyways, let me just like give them all. Um, and then the other piece too is that I think you nailed it, Nikki, that waiting space between your photo shoot when you're on a high and when you finally receive the photos. So many of our inner stories that have lived in us for probably since childhood, it's probably our mom's fault, you know. But right, like it's it it comes up. And photos are such a like tender thing. They really do bring up those feelings for you. So does growing a business. The fastest way to self-improvement is growing a business, and the other fastest way is doing a photo shoot. And so you combine the two together, and you're like, so what I've actually found is rocket ship all of a sudden, right?

SPEAKER_02 17:06

It's like no Forbes under 40. Like that just those two things, y'all. That's it. That's the advice. Go forth. I'll sit you on a cover of a magazine, probably shot by one of these two folks.

SPEAKER_00 17:15

It's true though. When you let people sit too long, or I found for my clients, anyways, um, that when people are sitting too long, they start to feel all of those things, or the feelings of insecurity that may come up in their business, like maybe they lost a contract or whatever, and the hype of the photo shoot has degraded those feelings that happen in the middle, muddle into the photos. And I never want that to happen. So like a psycho, I have a 48-hour delivery. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Dana's like, no, no, no, you are psycho. I love that for you. I love that for you.

SPEAKER_02 17:52

You're on your journey.

SPEAKER_00 17:53

Yeah. So I'm on my journey. I do a 48-hour delivery. It's amazing. Also, part of my package is when someone books me, they're booking me not just for their photo shoot day, but I also block out my day for editing afterwards so that I can make that happen. So that's a bit of like my process on the back end to make sure. Uh, but then they get that momentum. None of those feelings are showing up. They're still super excited. And when I capture the momentum from the beginning, then I find that they get more use out of the gallery. So for me, that's my win. But I totally see the value in Dana's like, take your time and sit with it. Like that also can be really good because then you're making great decisions.

SPEAKER_02 18:28

I think at the end of the day, all people who who hire service-based providers, all they want to know is that they made the right decision. Correct. And they might have a preconceived notion of what that right decision is going into a process. And I think a big job of service providers is to help them figure out what is right, but also what is relevant to them because you can make a right decision, but it's not really relevant to you. And that can cause a lot of, especially for business owners, like, oh, I made the right decision to go do this, but it wasn't really relevant to what I do. And now I've distracted myself or I've built something extremely complicated into my business that so bridging the gap between right and relevant is such an important part, I think, of what service providers have to do. And you both touched on something that comes up a lot in photo shoots, and it's the people's feelings of like being nervous of not only going into the shoot, but of making their selects. And we often see this with people. I hate having my photo taken. I never look good in photos. Then the second part of that is a lot of times you're gonna be working with founders who are the face of their business. And there's a version of photography out there, especially us millennials who grew up in the age of massive amounts of Photoshop in our magazines, that you can make someone look polished and professional, but they don't look like themselves. So, how do you know when you've crossed the line from taking someone who is maybe nervous or thinking they don't look good in photos from this is who you really are to and it's a great photo, but it's not you.

SPEAKER_00 20:02

I think for me, I think that it comes less in the editing time and more in what's happening in the studio. And it's holding the right space for them so that they can be that version of themselves. Because I'm gonna, I'm gonna do a little hot take here. For anyone who feels that they are awkward in front of the camera, I'm here to tell you that it's not you, it's the photographer you had. And I might get some hate from other photographers, but I genuinely I genuinely like a fundamental belief of mine is that it is the photographer's job to hold the space for you to be the person that you authentically are and to be the person that you want to portray to the world. And if they can't hold that space for you, then that's when you started to feel awkward because you didn't feel like you could be you and be wonderfully celebrated for the you that's showing up.

SPEAKER_01 20:54

I spent so much of my 20s being like an anxious mess. And um, I'm really sensitive to people being nervous about their shoot. And I always say to them, like, that's the last thing that I want you to feel is is that it's just being comfortable with your photographer. Feedback that I get a lot from people is like, I feel like I'm hanging out with a friend, and a lot of the times like lines do kind of become friends. So um, yeah, making people feel comfortable is the number one thing. I also with my style, I don't overly pose people. Um, and sometimes I find even like mood boards or inspo boards can get a little bit prescriptive for people feeling they need to stand some way or they need to hold their body a certain way, um, like there is in their inspo photos. I just like to see how they move around the space. And everybody's more or less comfortable and they need some help. We'll adjust. I'll demo something for them and sort of leave a lot of breathing room for just letting the magic happen and seeing when we're in this space and the outfits on, sort of what. What might come to mind and sort of leaving room for creativity.

SPEAKER_02 22:04

Yeah, I love that you mentioned creativity because I remember dating that one of the things I wanted to do at my shoot with you was I'm like, I have a confetti cannon. Yes. Can I bring that? And we literally shot a confetti cannon. Do you remember I got in trouble?

SPEAKER_01 22:16

I got in trouble for the confetti cannon after.

SPEAKER_02 22:19

Because we missed some of it. We did our best to clean up everything, but I think we missed some of it because we did on top of a light.

SPEAKER_01 22:24

No, we did it. It stuck. No, it stuck to the ceiling. And then overnight it got unstuck and it fell down. And they were like, You didn't clean up the confetti. And I was like, I did. I I promise you there wasn't a speck of confetti. Swear to God, we did our best. I tell that.

SPEAKER_02 22:38

But like it was just such like an right? It's like it was just like to me, it was such a thing of, yeah, like cool, there's shots I want to get, holding book, holding laptop, the stock photography, the me looking cool and cute. And then it was also, what is that personality? What is that unique thing that's probably a little bit absurd with me at least? I'm like, I want to shoot a confetti cannon in the studio and there's a photo of me just like throwing confetti up in the air, which is really fun. How do you bring that essence? Because I think, Dana, what you said about letting people move. And when I think movement, I think play, especially with folks who are maybe, I don't want to say uptight, but they might work in an industry where it's considered more professional to be stiff and straight and strong and prof strong stance, strong stance, shit up. How do you work with them on that idea of movement and play to give more of that authentic self, but also just give them like maybe a little bit more variety or the ability to stand out from the financial planner next to them, from the lawyer next to them?

SPEAKER_01 23:37

Uh, two things with that. I would say like I usually start with movement then in the shoot. If someone's a little stiffer, I'm not gonna start with headshots usually. I'm gonna start with them sitting, maybe doing something with their hands, even if that's just like typing on their computer and just let them sort of relax into this, into the shoot. Usually the shots at the end are my favorite every single time because I can see in the gallery that they've now like relaxed and they're feeling really comfortable. And they're at that point in the shoot where they're like, we've got what we need. Like, let's just have fun with it. And usually those are my favorite ones. The other thing, too, is if they're in a market that's quite saturated, we'll have a conversation about like usually I ask about their their hobbies or like their like little eccentric quirk types of things and and find a way to incorporate something like that um into their shoot to sort of like bring out personality with movement. So I just did like um uh bookkeeper and like we had some play money, and she brought all this play money and she threw it. And so that was fun. And I was like, how can we have a little bit, yeah, more fun with maybe some props or things you can bring with you? I mean, like most industries that are maybe a little bit more corporate, and they're not they're not gonna be hanging upside down from the swing. Um that yeah, they might be like, no, that doesn't really feel like me. Um, but how do we incorporate maybe something that they've brought with them that can show off that personality?

SPEAKER_02 24:59

Like, how do you manage that industry expectation, I'll call it, of how someone in that space would look or operate in photography versus who that real person is right in front of you?

SPEAKER_00 25:09

Oh I think people get caught up in the well, I need a laptop photo and I need a cell phone photo, and it's like you do, but we also need to find things to showcase the you as well. So I think Dana gates some great points of you know, finding those hobbies or things that make them different. What is it that makes them them? What are their customers saying about them? What are their customers already raving about? And what can we pull from? So similar vein of the like bookkeeper with the play money did something similar with a mortgage broker. I was like, what if we got a money gun?

SPEAKER_02 25:43

Yes, we love a money gun.

SPEAKER_00 25:46

We love that was great marketing because now she thinks of me on a weekly basis.

SPEAKER_01 25:49

So sometimes when I ask people how they want people to feel from working with them, it might how they want people to feel is maybe very different than their style is. Um, and so I'll have people come and be like, Well, I want people to feel like they're having a blast, but they're actually quite of a serious personality. And so I find sometimes it's tricky to bridge the gap between what they want to portray, which is sometimes mostly aspirational from other people they're following, versus how they really are in their day-to-day to work together.

SPEAKER_02 26:26

Wanting to be captured as the person they think they should be or who they want to be because they think that's what's going to attract people versus who they actually are.

SPEAKER_00 26:35

I have an exercise for that that I love to send clients through if I find that that's coming up, is that I actually ask them to go through all of their testimonials. And if they haven't gone through their or they don't have testimonials and because they haven't been like putting in the effort together, I'm like, you need to get some testimonials and then go through them. I hear you.

SPEAKER_02 26:53

I feel ashamed. I feel judged.

SPEAKER_00 26:56

But what are those common threads? What are those things that people keep saying over and over? And I'll use myself as an example. I thought when I first started my business, I thought that I needed like I like pink, it's not a surprise, but I thought I needed to do the pastel pink and be like pretty and just girly and like just fully lean into that. And I'm actually more fun, Barbie on steroids. And so, like, that's the vibe. Um, and so I had this whole brand that was like very like almost like elegant, uh pink, that kind of thing. But then I went through my testimonials and realized like almost every single person was talking about how fun the experience was in studio. But I wasn't showcasing that in my socials. I wasn't showcasing that in like my color palette for my brand. Like nothing was showcasing the fun. So that's one of the exercises I love people to do if they're not sure if I'm if I'm sensing that there's like a misalignment in who they want to be portrayed as and who they are, is I'll tell them, like, hey, go through them. Let's let's see what through lines we can grab in here. And that is you. That is the you that people are celebrating and loving. And let's double down on that because that's what's working already. And I love doubling down on the things that are already working because you already know.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

Yeah. So many business owners are just they yeah, they really struggle with like tuning their own horn and actually looking at their reviews. And yeah, for sure. I agree with that.

SPEAKER_02 28:31

Dana, I want to bring up a specific policy that you have, which is what you call the two-week rule. Your two-week rule it turns to editing and retouching. Yes, please tell me about this because I love it as as a policy, but tell me a little bit more about what the policy is and why you decided to explicitly for two weeks and never hear from again.

SPEAKER_01 28:54

No, I'm just kidding. That's not the two-week rule. No, it's it really, it really came about as I sort of saw a few years in into my business a common thread with with my clients, which was like, you know, can you squeeze my body in and can you make me poreless? And can you remove, you know, XYZ from my body or my face? And I uh yeah, as a woman, as someone who grew up reading magazines and looking at these photos, um, I just felt like we were in a different place culturally. Um, that that that is not something that I wanted to subscribe to anymore. Um, and that was tough to say no to, especially when you're with someone and they're like, you're gonna do all of this for me, right? And and you're sort of like, well, yeah, you know, I'm definitely makeup helps with this, lighting helps with this, posing helps with all of these things. So my policy is just if if there's something that isn't going to be on your person in the next two weeks, I will remove it. So that's like bruises, blemishes, you know, your kid gassed your lip the night before, massive zit on your forehead, lipstick on your teeth, you know, you're gonna pop blood vessel in your eye, things like that. I will absolutely because I would never want somebody to be like, you know, oh my gosh, I can't have my photo shoot because I have, you know, I have a massive forehead blemish. But everything else, I just stopped being comfortable altering people's bodies and their body shape. I also realized that it wasn't great for me psychologically either to keep doing that. And then I noticed that even I was looking at my own photos and being like, well, I could smooth that and I could squeeze that in. And and I just was like, I can't, yeah, it just didn't feel in alignment with my personal values. So yeah, that's how we got to the two-week rule.

SPEAKER_02 30:48

I love it as a policy, but I also love that it's explicit for everyone who comes in because I think it's also really important with any type of service provider to be really upfront on what you don't do. Like, let's, you know, let's not waste each other's time. Let's not make this an issue that comes up later. Because if you don't ever mention that someone books a shoot and they're like, Well, why didn't you make this my ways smaller? Why didn't you thin out my face? It's like, well, I don't do that. Well, now I'm really unhappy with the money I gave you, and we're gonna have some type of argument about that. It just removes that implicit things that may come up later and become an issue by saying explicitly, this is what I do, this is how I operate.

SPEAKER_01 31:27

I feel like we should be showing what a woman in her for like forgives looks like, and that's not great for women in their 20s to think, you know, have an unrealistic expectation of what a woman of a certain age looks like, and and that that beautiful that beauty is aging as well. So yes.

SPEAKER_02 31:47

If someone is listening to this episode and they're thinking about booking a brand shoot, or to make it kind of that cross-industry functionality, if someone is listening to this and they have a business like a photographer where you have to get really intimate with someone and they might be coming in with a perception of what they want before they even talk to you, and you're managing that expectation or perception when they're coming in. If someone is experiencing that in their business, what do you think is the thing you have to do to reframe, redirect, or support the client through, yeah, that's not quite what this is, but here's why this is so much better than what you maybe originally thought.

SPEAKER_00 32:26

I think you need to find someone that is going to understand the root of your problem. And that applies to all service providers. Someone that is gonna put on that doctor's hat that is gonna understand the problem you're trying to solve and actually get there and guide you along the way.

SPEAKER_01 32:48

I would say personality fit. There's such an amazing network of brand photographers like around where we live, and we're all so different. And everyone's work is fantastic. So I feel like finding someone that you know that you're gonna feel comfortable with, that their energy matches yours, um, is is key. I mean, also referral, like ask that's the other thing. Like, I I get so many referrals because someone has worked with me and and that is wonderful. But I that's also how I pick a service based provider. I'm sort of like, hey, I need a new hairstylist, you know, who do you recommend? I love yours and what was it like to work for them? And like, you know, stuff like that. Yeah, yeah. So I I feel like, yeah, and I it that's sometimes hard to tell over social media. Um, but I think that's where social media can shine for a lot of us, is you know, in the stories, in the feed, in the real, is you know, really check someone out, you know, like look, see, make sure their their values match yours and their and their style, obviously. And I feel like so much of us understand intuition now where we're just like, I know I'm gonna, I know it's gonna be a good fit. Um, and I feel that with clients too. You know, I'm sure we've all had situations where we work with someone, we're like, oh, I've got a little bit of a I'm not sure. And it usually turns out to be right. So yeah, trust your gut. And yeah, yeah. And it should be fun, like it really should be a fun experience. Like, yeah, um, agree. Yeah, we do so many not fun things in all of our businesses with accounting and you know, all of the other taxes, you know, there's work, email, not yeah, not fun things that we have to do in our business. So I'm always like, this is a fun one. A lot of us used to work in corporate and now we run our own businesses. And so, like, this is the reason why we did this, so we could have a good time and have fun. So that's key.

SPEAKER_02 34:40

Before we get into the final question of what y'all are both recommending, where can people find you? How can people connect with you?

SPEAKER_01 34:48

Three at threecrownstudio.com is my website, and on Instagram, I I'm at threecrowns branding. And yeah, those are my my main contact points.

SPEAKER_00 34:58

And I'm victoriam.ca and it's spelled M-A-E per May. That's my website, and my socials is at Victoria May Photo.

SPEAKER_02 35:08

All right, we are going into the final question. Dana, Victoria, what would you recommend this week?

SPEAKER_00 35:17

Okay, mine's super niche, uh, but also like on that like travel bandwagon. Um, Tabov Mati, if you like is a resort or like lodge in South Africa. And yeah, so that's why I was like, it's super niche, but I just No, but is it like is it in Kruger Park? It's in Kruger. Yeah, yeah, it's in Kruger. It is hands down the most amazing experience I've ever had, both in terms of customer service and like just everything they did. They they thought of details before I knew I needed them. You know, like one night it was like a little bit chillier. We were at dinner, we get back to the room, they've got like a hot bath drawn for us with flowers and bubbles. They have a nightcap and like a little treat. And then after all of that, we climb into bed. They've got hot water bottles warming the sheets for us.

SPEAKER_02 36:13

Like this is the that's so true because in South Africa, I used to I used to live and work in South Africa. Um, no way, yeah, yeah. Um, they don't really have indoor heating in the majority of their buildings, especially on the eastern side of the country. So yeah, I totally get why there's water bottles because they don't have inside heating.

SPEAKER_00 36:29

But it was so nice and so thoughtful. Like, I was just like, oh, this is this is great. But they all through the whole experience, like thought of every every detail. Like the rain jackets were like fleece lined.

SPEAKER_01 36:43

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

Like it was just like you got off every every single safari and they had a drink waiting for you. They wouldn't let their servers stop at like a table until there was no plates in their hand because they would never approach someone with like anything dirty.

SPEAKER_02 36:59

I was just like, Oh, yeah. I've never been anywhere in the Kruger park, but my parents have gone to Londelosi in Kruger a couple times, and they're like, it's amazing. I'm very jealous. I'm very jealous right now. Yeah, uh, Dana, what would you recommend?

SPEAKER_00 37:15

It doesn't have to be a Kruger National Party. Like it's the quality of the experience. 100%. It does not have to be that. It just like that altered my brain chemistry.

SPEAKER_01 37:23

Nobody is turning down money sheets. Um rude. This is gonna be like the sad. This is yeah, I don't even know how I follow that. Um, finding someone that makes a good sourdough, find a good sourdough person. That's highly recommend. I mean, agree. Pearl Pearl Morissette is really good, like the RPM bakery. Um don't even get me, don't even get me started. We go there once a year. Actually, I would recommend that.

SPEAKER_02 37:47

Yeah, Pearl Morissette, if you just want to like spurs on an amazing dining experience, go to sourdough.

SPEAKER_01 37:53

Yeah, but or just get the sourdough and then just go home and or just eat it in your car. That's yeah. So I'm on a sourdough, I'm on a sourdough hunt lately. Like I think about sourdough quite a bit. And um, I if someone mentions it, like my ears perk up and I'm like, where's your guy? Um, I'm willing to go to Back Alley's for a good sourdough. Yeah, so that's that's what I'm really doing.

SPEAKER_02 38:15

Well, next time you're in Niagara on the Lake, Dana, Ravine Winery has a bakery that's open Thursday through Monday, and they have four different kinds of sourdough. I stop by every week and pick up a loaf. It's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 38:25

I must have missed the sourdough craze in 2020, like during COVID when everyone was making it. Now I just want to buy it from others.

SPEAKER_02 38:33

I agree. I'm never gonna make it. I'm far too lazy. Amazing. All right, y'all. Thank you so much. I so appreciate the time. I think both of you are just such amazing humans, and this has just been so much fun. Welcome to the after show. It's just Nikki here now, and I know I say this every single time. I could just keep talking to these people forever because they're so much fun. I love how their brain works, and they're just such cool women to be around. Oh, I yeah, I know. This is a struggle, people. When you have a podcast where you get to talk to really interesting people, the people are so interesting, you just want to keep talking to them. This is my first world problems. Um, okay, down to business. I want to pull out three different things from this interview with Bic and Dana because I think they translate directly into takeaways for all of y'all. And I don't want them to get lost into what was a genuinely fun conversation about confetti cannons and sourdough. Honestly, that confetti cannon thing, I still have positive feelings about it, even though the fan you was not very happy with us. Okay, so the first thing I want to deep dive into a little bit here is about visibility before the vibe check. So both Dana and Vit came back to the same idea from different angles, which is when you're choosing a photographer, you have to pick somebody who matches your energy, who you vibe with, who's a personality fit, which this is something we say about a lot of people that we work with, not just service providers. We say it about team members. You can hire for culture and you need to hire for personality fit. So it sounds fairly obvious, but the follow-up question that I think needs a little bit more attention is how are you supposed to know if your energy matches someone's if their personality isn't visible anywhere? So, Vic, when she talked about going through her own testimonials and realizing that every single client was using the word fun, but nothing in her brand at the time was showing that. The photos, the colors, her content, like none of it was reflecting who she actually was to work with. So here's the translation for you is your clients cannot self-select for your vibe if your vibe isn't visible. And honestly, I think a discovery call is too late. The discovery call really, or the consult, or whenever you actually meet this potential client face to face, if you're in a service business, that should be like the affirmation that everything they think about you up until then is true. Because by the time someone books a call with you, they're likely already interested. So what needs to happen before that in everything that leads to the call is that the right person recognizes themselves in you and the wrong person quietly decides you're not their match, which is both outcomes are good. You want to design for both. So, where is your personality, where is your vibe actually visible in your business? This is not a value statement, this is not your mission, but like the actual texture of who you are to work with. Because if someone can't feel that from your content, from your offers page or your emails before they ever talk to you, I feel like you're leaving the most important part of the decision invisible. So be big. The second one is about anticipating anxiety and not just managing it. This is something that I, as a neurodivergent person, love. Not to quote the John Mullaney joke about I don't want to go to a secondary location, but the idea of a secondary location is very anxiety-inducing to me, not just in the context of his joke when it talks about kidnapping, but in this sense of I want to know what to expect. I want to know how to prepare so that I'm not surprised. And both Dana and Vic described building these pre-shoot processes, not just because their clients asked for them, but because they had seen enough shoots go sideways to know where this nervous energy is going to show up, whether it's around their wardrobe or their shot list, knowing where the images are actually going to go, a website banner versus an Instagram post. Dana talked about bringing a shot list and a mood board to the shoot so that if things go sideways or someone freezes, there's always something to refer back to. Vic mentioned her really um in-depth pre-production questionnaire, which she tells clients up front is like a 45-minute commitment because she's learned that this information is too important to rush. So I think it's important to consider in our own businesses where are the moments where someone is working with you or starts working with you where the anxiety might be the highest and you're maybe not saying anything. So onboarding is an obvious one, but it also lives in these gaps or these interstitial bits between someone signing a contract and receiving a deliverable after they say yes to when they go to somewhere. It's in the silence after the project wraps and you're just like waiting. So silences aren't neutral, silences are active because your client is going to fill them with something. And the question is whether it's going to be something that you designed or that something they're inventing because they need it filled. Right. So think about how you can guide people through something and help them anticipate what's coming next. One of my side jobs is I work at a winery and we do winery tours. And something that our leadership team has really impressed upon us is that every time you stop on the tour, remind them what you're going to do next. Remind them of what the process is. We're going to go here and then I'm going to talk about X, Y, and Z. Well, now we're at this place, just like I said we're going to be. And now I'm going to talk about Y and Z. And we're going to go to the third place, just like I said we were. We've already talked about this. Now I'm going to talk to you about Z, right? Those silences aren't neutral. They're active. What do you want to fill them with? And the third thing I want to bring up is related to the first thing about the most important thing you can do is show your personality so that people can see if your vibe matches theirs. And what's what's really important with this is we're not talking about a curated version. We're not going to polish it into something broadly appealing. It's actually showing things. Dana and her two-week editing policy on her website, you know, before you book, and you either love the philosophy behind it or you don't. And it's designed so that the right clients find her and the misaligned ones don't waste anybody's time. And that's not necessarily a boundary, although it very much is for Dana. It is an experience decision because every time you can explicitly state something about how you work is a filter that makes the people who are right for you feel more certain. And then the people who aren't feel less like they have to talk you out of it later. The lesson here is show your work, show your process, show your opinions, because the clients you most want to work with are looking for reasons to trust you. And the most efficient reason you can give them is just being recognizably, specifically yourself before they ever talk to you face to face. All right. So, recap of the three: make your vibe visible, anticipate the anxiety and design for it, and being explicit about your policies isn't red tape. It's a welcome mat for those right people. If this episode resonated with you, the most useful thing you can do for me right now is to rate, review, and subscribe to Would Recommend wherever you are listening. It takes about 90 seconds and it genuinely helps more people find the show. You can also take the time to send this episode to a business bestie with the message you know what? I recommend this episode because I think you will find this conversation interesting. If you want a framework for building a client experience worth talking about, grab the WoodRecommend Standard at theopshop.biz slash would recommend dash standard. It's free and it's based on five principles that I come back to every time on how to be the best in your industry. And if something we talked about today has you thinking about your own client experience, I'd love to dig into it with you. You can book a spark session at theopshop.biz slash spark session. 90 minutes, your actual business, no flack. That is it for us today. This is Wood Recommend. I'm Nikki McKnight, and we will see you next week.